Gestalt Power
For Rappan Athuk I have both limited and opened up the allowable classes to quite a large number of potential choice combinations.
I’ve limited them in that they only have 10 classes to choose from. I’ve looked at all of the other base classes from the “Complete” and other books, and I think I’m sticking with the ones I’ve selected already.
But looking at all the potential combinations of those 10 classes gives you 42 different combinations, 45 had there not been alignment issues with the barbarian vs. the knight, monk, and paladin.
More so, I’m allowing class options (from the PHB2, Unearthed Arcana, etc. with DM approval) that could potentially give you 400 different combinations. Now some of those options would be utterly worthless, but it’s an option none-the-less. In the end you’ll have around 100 gestalt class combinations to choose from that won’t suck.
To judge how well classes work together you have to look at their abilities and determine if the combination is worth the effort.
Mixing two similar classes means that your skill points won’t be incredibly diluted, but you saves will probably be the same as well.
Mixing two dissimilar classes means you’ll have good saves, but too few skill points to spread everywhere..
Barbarian – Excellent hit points and big potential for dealing damage. Works well with any class that can get into melee combat. They have decent skill points as well.
Favored Soul – Good armor options and a vast array of spells to choose from give this class enough modularity to make it a viable companion to any other class.
Fighter – The feats and BAB are probably the only reasons this class would be chosen for a gestalt class.
Knight – Excellent hit points and can hang with the best in melee, plus its abilities give this class some good endurance in melee. Good when coupled with another melee class, but its role-playing restrictions make several other classes worthless when combined with it.
Monk – Average hit points, saves, and BAB; no armor and lawfully-aligned only. If you can work around those issues and exploit its special abilities then you might have a kick ass class. Otherwise just skip the monk and pick something more suitable for you.
Ranger – Plenty of options give this class a versatility that allows it to be coupled with just about any other class.
Rogue – A lot of skill points helps offset the worst issues with gestalt PC’s – not enough skills to go around. Sneak attack gives several other classes a good extra bit of damage that can’t be ignored.
Scout – A combination of the rogue and ranger makes this class a good non-gestalt class, but pretty iffy when put into a gestalt situation. I’m not sure I’d even use a scout unless combined with a rogue or ranger.
Sorcerer – A large list of spells to use from make this class almost as versatile as the favored soul, but the spellcasting in armor penalty hurts when combining with other classes. Spells can be used to offset the armor problem, but it only goes so far. But if you can stay out of melee, then you’re probably free to wreak havoc on the battlefield.
Combinations I like:
Favored Soul + Monk = The ultimate in heals on wheels. No armor + speed bonuses leave very little on the battlefield you can’t reach in a single move. When you’re not needed for healing you can easily cast buff spells or use your special abilities to aid your party.
Favored Soul + Sorcerer = It means you never run out of spells.
Round 1: Buff or nuke?
Round 2: Buff or nuke?
Round 3: Out of spells yet? Not even close? Ok, buff or nuke?
Barbarian + Rogue = Ouch! Take 2d6 (greatsword) + 12 (raging strength of 22 +50% for two-handing) + 8 (Power Attack) + 2d6 (sneak attack) for an average of 34 points of damage in a single hit at level 4. Your AC isn’t all that great, so just make sure you kill it before it kills you.
Fighter + Knight = The ultimate in tin can technology. A lot of hit points and a ridiculous armor class (augmented by AC giving fighter feats) makes this guy the reverse of the barbarian/rogue; less damage but more staying power.
Now you modify them with various class options that exist in a few of the books.
Here is a rough list of class options and my current opinion on whether I’d allow it in this game:
Battle Sorcerer – A sorcerer gives up some spells per day to gain some combat skills. This one gets a big no because this is a gestalt game. If you want a fighting sorcerer, pick a sorcerer and a fighting class.
Berserker Strength – Allows a barbarian to give up barbarian rage for a benefit similar to the rage but when you are at 5 times your barbarian levels in hit points. Right now I’m 50/50 on this one. This ability sounds like an early incarnation of 4E’s “bloodied” status bonuses, so maybe allowing it will give us a small glimpse of the future.
Charging Smite – A paladin gives up his special pokemount to deal extra damage to evil creatures when he charges them and smites them at the same time. Sounds simple enough to me, so I’ll allow it, heck I’ll probably require it.
Class ability shuffling option variants – Any class variant that gives up a class’s special abilities to gain the special abilities of another class is a no. An example is the rogue that gives up sneak attack to gain fighter bonus feats. I see no need to for that to be around in a gestalt game. If you want a rogue with fighter feats, take a rogue/fighter.
Counterattack – A fighter gives up his level 12 bonus feat to gain the ability to immediately attack someone who just attacked him (once per round), but only if he uses a full round action and makes only one attack. This one I’ll allow as a lot of the second and third attack swings tend to be wastes of time.
Decisive Strike – The monk gives up his Flurry of Blows option to make a single attack that deals double damage and increases the DC’s of his special attacks. This seems like a good trade off as Flurry of Blows just plain blows as monks can’t hit worth a damn.
Deity’s Favor – Allows a favored soul to give up his deity’s weapon focus bonus feat and gain the ability to give temporary hit points to spell recipients. This option looks simple, but I know it can add enough of a complication to the game that outweighs the gain. (“Oh wait, I forgot about my bonus hit points! I need to change my action.”) So this one is out.
Disruptive Attack – A rogue delays gaining his Uncanny Dodge until level 8 (and never gets the improved version) in order to give AC penalties to opponents for a round that he flanks or has caught flat-footed but doesn’t get to add sneak attack damage (and even works on opponents who are immune to sneak attack). This one sounds ok, and hopefully it won’t be complicated.
Distracting Attack – A ranger gives up his animal companion in order to give his allies a flanking bonus for a single attack. Not only am I allowing this, I am requiring it because I’ve banned animal companions and this is a good tradeoff.
Dungeon Specialist – A scout gives up some of his movement bonuses in order to gain other bonuses while climbing. I don’t see any real reason to take this, but if a players wants to make his PC suck, I’m all for allowing it and putting a target on that PC’s head.
Elusive Attack – A fighter gives up his level 6 bonus feat to gain an AC bonus when performing a single attack as a full-round action. That sounds simple and fair to me.
Fighting Styles: Monks get a variety of different class abilities depending on their fighting style choice. I won’t be allowing this one, as there are too many things that are different for no real gain and a big potential for time-wasting. I could be swayed on this one with a good argument from a player and a promise that it won’t slow the game down.
Metamagic Specialist – A sorcerer gives up his familiar in order to be able to cast metamagic spells without increasing the casting time for a limited number of times per day. Like the ranger’s Distracting Attack, this one is required as no familiars are in this game.
Overpowering Attack – A fighter gives up his level 16 bonus feat to allow him to take a full round action to make a single swing that does double damage. I will allow this one as by then a fighter has 4 attacks and usually only 2 of them hit. This option just saves time and could potentially be a devastating damage dealer.
Paladin class alignment variants: Paladins exist for the other 3 non-neutral alignments (Freedom for CG, Tyranny for LE, and Slaughter for CE) with different special abilities. I want to allow because I like the idea of the classes but feel it could be a mistake (see monk fighting styles). So I’m 50/50 on this one.
Ranger Variants – A ranger gives up some wilderness abilities to gain some for other terrains. This module won’t have those other terrains enough to warrant the need. So these options receive a no.
Totem Variants – Barbarians get a different list of special abilities depending on their choice in totem creature. I won’t be allowing this one, see monk Fighting Styles for why.
Wilderness Rogue – a rogue gives up some of his city-based skills to gain some wilderness-based ones. Since it’s mostly a skill shuffle, I don’t see why not to allow it.
I’m sure there are more variants and I’m sure the players will ask about or find them.
Plus I want make clear that the options and variants are meant to help a player design his PC to make it easier and faster to play, not to help a player make a broken PC.
I’m not telling the players that they absolutely can’t play a certain option or combination. But if they want it that bad, they have to ensure to me with 100% certainty that their PC will not slow down the game.
I’ve seen enough games where player A’s turn is 15 seconds long, while player B’s is 3 minutes. It’s simply unfair to player A to have to sit through 10 minutes of other people’s actions before he has the opportunity to roll a d20 and wait some more.
I’ve limited them in that they only have 10 classes to choose from. I’ve looked at all of the other base classes from the “Complete” and other books, and I think I’m sticking with the ones I’ve selected already.
But looking at all the potential combinations of those 10 classes gives you 42 different combinations, 45 had there not been alignment issues with the barbarian vs. the knight, monk, and paladin.
More so, I’m allowing class options (from the PHB2, Unearthed Arcana, etc. with DM approval) that could potentially give you 400 different combinations. Now some of those options would be utterly worthless, but it’s an option none-the-less. In the end you’ll have around 100 gestalt class combinations to choose from that won’t suck.
To judge how well classes work together you have to look at their abilities and determine if the combination is worth the effort.
Mixing two similar classes means that your skill points won’t be incredibly diluted, but you saves will probably be the same as well.
Mixing two dissimilar classes means you’ll have good saves, but too few skill points to spread everywhere..
Barbarian – Excellent hit points and big potential for dealing damage. Works well with any class that can get into melee combat. They have decent skill points as well.
Favored Soul – Good armor options and a vast array of spells to choose from give this class enough modularity to make it a viable companion to any other class.
Fighter – The feats and BAB are probably the only reasons this class would be chosen for a gestalt class.
Knight – Excellent hit points and can hang with the best in melee, plus its abilities give this class some good endurance in melee. Good when coupled with another melee class, but its role-playing restrictions make several other classes worthless when combined with it.
Monk – Average hit points, saves, and BAB; no armor and lawfully-aligned only. If you can work around those issues and exploit its special abilities then you might have a kick ass class. Otherwise just skip the monk and pick something more suitable for you.
Ranger – Plenty of options give this class a versatility that allows it to be coupled with just about any other class.
Rogue – A lot of skill points helps offset the worst issues with gestalt PC’s – not enough skills to go around. Sneak attack gives several other classes a good extra bit of damage that can’t be ignored.
Scout – A combination of the rogue and ranger makes this class a good non-gestalt class, but pretty iffy when put into a gestalt situation. I’m not sure I’d even use a scout unless combined with a rogue or ranger.
Sorcerer – A large list of spells to use from make this class almost as versatile as the favored soul, but the spellcasting in armor penalty hurts when combining with other classes. Spells can be used to offset the armor problem, but it only goes so far. But if you can stay out of melee, then you’re probably free to wreak havoc on the battlefield.
Combinations I like:
Favored Soul + Monk = The ultimate in heals on wheels. No armor + speed bonuses leave very little on the battlefield you can’t reach in a single move. When you’re not needed for healing you can easily cast buff spells or use your special abilities to aid your party.
Favored Soul + Sorcerer = It means you never run out of spells.
Round 1: Buff or nuke?
Round 2: Buff or nuke?
Round 3: Out of spells yet? Not even close? Ok, buff or nuke?
Barbarian + Rogue = Ouch! Take 2d6 (greatsword) + 12 (raging strength of 22 +50% for two-handing) + 8 (Power Attack) + 2d6 (sneak attack) for an average of 34 points of damage in a single hit at level 4. Your AC isn’t all that great, so just make sure you kill it before it kills you.
Fighter + Knight = The ultimate in tin can technology. A lot of hit points and a ridiculous armor class (augmented by AC giving fighter feats) makes this guy the reverse of the barbarian/rogue; less damage but more staying power.
Now you modify them with various class options that exist in a few of the books.
Here is a rough list of class options and my current opinion on whether I’d allow it in this game:
Battle Sorcerer – A sorcerer gives up some spells per day to gain some combat skills. This one gets a big no because this is a gestalt game. If you want a fighting sorcerer, pick a sorcerer and a fighting class.
Berserker Strength – Allows a barbarian to give up barbarian rage for a benefit similar to the rage but when you are at 5 times your barbarian levels in hit points. Right now I’m 50/50 on this one. This ability sounds like an early incarnation of 4E’s “bloodied” status bonuses, so maybe allowing it will give us a small glimpse of the future.
Charging Smite – A paladin gives up his special pokemount to deal extra damage to evil creatures when he charges them and smites them at the same time. Sounds simple enough to me, so I’ll allow it, heck I’ll probably require it.
Class ability shuffling option variants – Any class variant that gives up a class’s special abilities to gain the special abilities of another class is a no. An example is the rogue that gives up sneak attack to gain fighter bonus feats. I see no need to for that to be around in a gestalt game. If you want a rogue with fighter feats, take a rogue/fighter.
Counterattack – A fighter gives up his level 12 bonus feat to gain the ability to immediately attack someone who just attacked him (once per round), but only if he uses a full round action and makes only one attack. This one I’ll allow as a lot of the second and third attack swings tend to be wastes of time.
Decisive Strike – The monk gives up his Flurry of Blows option to make a single attack that deals double damage and increases the DC’s of his special attacks. This seems like a good trade off as Flurry of Blows just plain blows as monks can’t hit worth a damn.
Deity’s Favor – Allows a favored soul to give up his deity’s weapon focus bonus feat and gain the ability to give temporary hit points to spell recipients. This option looks simple, but I know it can add enough of a complication to the game that outweighs the gain. (“Oh wait, I forgot about my bonus hit points! I need to change my action.”) So this one is out.
Disruptive Attack – A rogue delays gaining his Uncanny Dodge until level 8 (and never gets the improved version) in order to give AC penalties to opponents for a round that he flanks or has caught flat-footed but doesn’t get to add sneak attack damage (and even works on opponents who are immune to sneak attack). This one sounds ok, and hopefully it won’t be complicated.
Distracting Attack – A ranger gives up his animal companion in order to give his allies a flanking bonus for a single attack. Not only am I allowing this, I am requiring it because I’ve banned animal companions and this is a good tradeoff.
Dungeon Specialist – A scout gives up some of his movement bonuses in order to gain other bonuses while climbing. I don’t see any real reason to take this, but if a players wants to make his PC suck, I’m all for allowing it and putting a target on that PC’s head.
Elusive Attack – A fighter gives up his level 6 bonus feat to gain an AC bonus when performing a single attack as a full-round action. That sounds simple and fair to me.
Fighting Styles: Monks get a variety of different class abilities depending on their fighting style choice. I won’t be allowing this one, as there are too many things that are different for no real gain and a big potential for time-wasting. I could be swayed on this one with a good argument from a player and a promise that it won’t slow the game down.
Metamagic Specialist – A sorcerer gives up his familiar in order to be able to cast metamagic spells without increasing the casting time for a limited number of times per day. Like the ranger’s Distracting Attack, this one is required as no familiars are in this game.
Overpowering Attack – A fighter gives up his level 16 bonus feat to allow him to take a full round action to make a single swing that does double damage. I will allow this one as by then a fighter has 4 attacks and usually only 2 of them hit. This option just saves time and could potentially be a devastating damage dealer.
Paladin class alignment variants: Paladins exist for the other 3 non-neutral alignments (Freedom for CG, Tyranny for LE, and Slaughter for CE) with different special abilities. I want to allow because I like the idea of the classes but feel it could be a mistake (see monk fighting styles). So I’m 50/50 on this one.
Ranger Variants – A ranger gives up some wilderness abilities to gain some for other terrains. This module won’t have those other terrains enough to warrant the need. So these options receive a no.
Totem Variants – Barbarians get a different list of special abilities depending on their choice in totem creature. I won’t be allowing this one, see monk Fighting Styles for why.
Wilderness Rogue – a rogue gives up some of his city-based skills to gain some wilderness-based ones. Since it’s mostly a skill shuffle, I don’t see why not to allow it.
I’m sure there are more variants and I’m sure the players will ask about or find them.
Plus I want make clear that the options and variants are meant to help a player design his PC to make it easier and faster to play, not to help a player make a broken PC.
I’m not telling the players that they absolutely can’t play a certain option or combination. But if they want it that bad, they have to ensure to me with 100% certainty that their PC will not slow down the game.
I’ve seen enough games where player A’s turn is 15 seconds long, while player B’s is 3 minutes. It’s simply unfair to player A to have to sit through 10 minutes of other people’s actions before he has the opportunity to roll a d20 and wait some more.
posted by BlueBlackRed at 6:50 PM
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